华新 - saw the hardcopy rules at SIXGA, 60 mins + 30 secs ......

感觉用时大幅度缩短，大约70分钟走完30步后马上进入3分钟10步。最慢的棋局也将在2个半小时内结束（每方用足1小时15分钟）去年3，4个小时大战的局面将不再出现。

saw the hardcopy rules at SIXGA, 60 mins + 30 secs ......

assume each move takes one minute, can complete within 4 hours for 120 moves by each player and not to affect the next round for Group B on 28 Jun 2009 :

Round 3 -- 2 pm

Round 4 -- 7 pm

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在棋一生的大作中提到：

章程略有修改，请有意参赛的棋手们仔细阅读！1 棋赛宗旨：促进象棋活动；提高棋艺水平。 2 主办机构：新加坡象棋总会。 3 比赛日期：2009年6月26日（星期五）至7月12日（仅于星期五、星期六与星期日举行）。详见《比赛时间表》 4 比赛地点：新加坡象棋总会，51 Bishan St 13,#01-01 电话：62590984 。 5 参赛组别：分为公开A组、B组与女子组。 6 比赛资格： -凡新加坡公民、永久居民、持就业准则、学生准证或学生准证者皆可参加。 -具有象棋大师、甲级棋士或乙级棋士称号者，才能参加公开A组。 -公开B组只限其他无等级称号人士参加。女子组只限女性参加。 7 报名手续： -参赛者须填妥报名表，并付报名费与押金，经审核后方为有效。 -报名费：公开A组$50；B组$20；女子组$10. -21岁以下在籍学生和60岁以上人士，报名费减半。 -象棋总会会员（01/04/09以前入会者）免交报名费。 -押金：公开A组$50；公开B组$30.完成赛程可取回押金；缺席两轮则押金没收。 -报名期限：即日起至6月21日晚上9时。逾期一概不受理。 -报名处：新加坡象棋总会，51 Bishan St 13,#01-01 电话：62590984 。 8 比赛制度： -公开A组采用瑞士积分一局制，轮数视人数而定。 -公开B组的比赛分成两个阶段：全体比赛员先进行七轮积分编� (more...)

Learning from the methods used in the last 5 years .......

11 + 0 method used in 2005.

9 + 0 method used in 2006.

in fact, 7 + 3 method was considered before 2007 National Open but 7 + 2 method was used instead in 2007 and again in 2008 ........

For 7 + 3 method, assume players A, B, C and D perform very well in the first 7 rounds as compared to players E, F, G and H.

After the first 7 rounds, the orders of ranking are A, B, C, D, E,F, G and H.

In Round 8, all players A, B, C and D perform badly and ended up players E, F, G and H move into semi-final and promoted to Grade B, i.e. Round 8 is the most critical round for all 8 players.

Personally, if we have times for 7 + 3 method, could we consider 9 + 1 method, if it is too late for National Open 2009, then how about next year ?

I understand it is not easy to design a system to take care of all factors, but since we have tried 11 + 0, 9 + 0, 7 + 2 methods so far, if it is not working well this year for 7 + 3 method, may be we should conisder the x + 1 method in future.

Previous post below for your reading, please.

http://bbs.huasing.org/sForum/bbs.php?B=123_11039300

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在棋一生的大作中提到：

第八轮开始采用的是双败淘汰制！ B组七轮比赛之后，进入第八轮的八强赛，赛制是采用双败淘汰制，因此一个棋友们普遍认为棋艺好的棋手如果进入八强后下输两场，被淘汰出圈，只能说明自己的棋艺水平还未到家，不能埋怨棋赛的制度。我也相信，如果一个棋艺水平未到家的棋手，不会那么侥幸，一路杀到大决赛。双败淘汰赛最后一次的采用是1976年，我当年就是在制度下受惠。那时有点幸运，两局慢棋下和没有加赛快棋决出胜负，而是以抽签决定。在比赛过程中，我两次两局慢棋下和，经由抽签进入胜方，最后才在半决赛以一胜一和战胜西马黄运兴荣获冠军宝座。现在令我感到疑惑的是，如果是采用双败淘汰制，8位棋手下3轮好像是不足够的，不知道我的分析是否正确，希望棋友们能够帮忙纠正！七轮以后，八位棋手进入八强第8轮赛完：胜方-4位棋手1胜；负方-4位选手1负第9轮赛完：胜方-2位棋手2胜，2位棋手1胜1负；负方-2位棋手1胜1负，2位棋手2负（淘汰）第10轮赛完：胜方-1位棋手3胜（冠军），2位棋手2胜1负，1位棋手1胜2负（淘汰）；负方-1位棋手2胜1负，1位棋手1胜2负（淘汰）胜方还有2位2胜1负的棋手，负方还有1位2胜1负的棋手，三轮够吗？请棋友们帮我释疑！

双败淘汰赛 ......

We used 双败淘汰赛 in 1964 school competition too, i.e. with 1 负 you still can continue with the game until final unless having 2 负. For 双败淘汰赛 with 8 players, we need 4 rounds or 5 rounds depending on the result of Round 4. 棋手 with 3 胜 cannot be given 冠军 yet as minimum number of rounds is 4, i.e. he still need to play one more round with the only player having 1 负, if he fails in Round 4, Round 5 is needed again for the same two players as both players having 1 负 now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, we need the meaning of 双败淘汰赛 for this coming competition.

My understsnding of 双败淘汰赛 here in 第8轮 -- is it a 两局淘汰赛 ?

第8轮赛完：

胜方-4位棋手1胜 -- moving into semi-final to fight for Top 4 ? i.e. promoted to Grade B ?

负方-4位选手1负 -- moving into lower half to fight for positions 5 to 8 ?

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在卷心菜的大作中提到：

鉴于个人赛不可能有那么多时间，现提出简洁版4轮方案。八人双败淘汰赛简洁版4轮方案（供象总讨论）前三轮跟国际惯例相同，在第四轮作出改进，决定所有名次。第一轮：8支队伍两两对垒，结束后，4支进入胜者组，4支进入败者组。第二轮：胜者组4支两两对垒，将有2支继续留在胜者组，2支进入败者组。败者组4支两两对垒，淘汰2支队伍。剩下2支队伍。（第7，第8名产生）第三轮：胜者组两支队伍休息。败者组4支队伍（第二轮由胜者组掉进败者组的2支+败者组剩下的2支）两两对垒，结束后，剩下2支。（第5，第6名产生）至此，三轮过后，晋升乙级的4名选手全部产生。第四轮：胜者组的2支队伍直接规定为前二名，并争夺冠军，负者为亚军。败者组的2支队伍直接规定为第三，四名，并进行比赛，胜者为第3，负者为第4。之前被淘汰的第5，6名进行比赛，胜者为第5，负者为第6。之前被淘汰的第7，8名进行比赛，胜者为第7，负者为第8。至此，四轮比赛结束后，前8名座次全部决出。总结：有4名棋手下了3轮，另外4名棋手下了4轮。

Yes, 7 + 4 proposed method is better .......

Yes, 7 + 4 proposed method is better than 7 + 3 method .......

at least now 第八轮 is critical for the Top 2 positions only but not the Top 4 only for promotion.

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在卷心菜的大作中提到：

八人双败淘汰赛（详细赛制）八人双败淘汰赛（注：此规则为国际惯例，不代表象总言论）　双败淘汰赛与淘汰赛相仿，也是负者出局，但负一场后并未被淘汰，只是跌入负者组，在负者组再负者(即总共已负两场)才被淘汰。以8支队伍为例：第一轮：8支队伍两两对垒，结束后，4支进入胜者组，4支进入败者组。第二轮：胜者组4支两两对垒，将有2支继续留在胜者组，2支进入败者组。败者组4支两两对垒，淘汰2支队伍。剩下2支队伍。（第7，第8名产生）第三轮：胜者组两支队伍休息。败者组4支队伍（第二轮由胜者组掉进败者组的2支+败者组剩下的2支）两两对垒，结束后，剩下2支。（第5，第6名产生）至此，三轮过后，晋升乙级的4名选手全部产生，但具体1，2，3，4的名次扔需继续进行三轮比赛才能决出。第四轮：胜者组2支队伍争夺胜者组冠军。（输的被打进败者组）败者组2支队伍淘汰一支。（被淘汰的就是第4名）第五轮：胜者组冠军休息。败者组2支队伍争夺败者组冠军。（季军产生，就是输的那一方）第六轮：胜者组冠军VS败者组冠军。（胜的为总冠军，输的为亚军）总结：最多的1名棋手需连下6轮。最少的2名棋手只下了2轮（两连败被淘汰），其他5名棋手下了3轮，4轮或5轮。

国际惯例 -- is there a system for 3 rounds 八人双败淘汰 ?

i.e. 双败 from last 3 rounds not in Top 4 and not promoted.

八人双败淘汰

after first round

胜者组 4人 select positions 1, 2, 3 and 5
负者组 4人 select positions 4, 6, 7 and 8

Position and results

1 胜胜胜胜者组
2 胜胜负胜者组
3 胜负胜胜者组
4 负胜胜
5 胜负负胜者组
6 负胜负
7 负负胜
8 负负负

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在棋一生的大作中提到：

经赛务组澄清：今年B组的赛制有点特殊，难以给予一个适当的名称！今年B组的赛制，有点类似单淘汰，但进入第8轮的前8名位棋手，都会下满三盘棋，以决出8位棋手的名次，不像以往的单淘汰赛，棋手下输一盘棋，就被淘汰。至于碧山君担心前7轮排名第5、6、7、8名的棋手，有机会击败排名第1、2、3、4名的棋手，显示出这个制度有欠公允，这点我不能苟同。第一：前七轮赛事过后的排名，还不能真正显示个别棋手的实力；第二：由于个别的因素，前7轮排名第5、6、7、8名的棋手，他们棋力并不逊于排名第1、2、3、4名的棋手，第8轮开始的单淘汰制，就是让他们有一个翻身的机会，证明自己的实力。

Proposal repeated again here for study .....

is there a system for 3 rounds 八人双败淘汰 ?

i.e. 双败 from last 3 rounds not in Top 4 and not promoted.

八人双败淘汰

after first round

胜者组 4人 select positions 1, 2, 3 and 5
负者组 4人 select positions 4, 6, 7 and 8

Position and results

1 胜胜胜胜者组
2 胜胜负胜者组
3 胜负胜胜者组
4 负胜胜
5 胜负负胜者组
6 负胜负
7 负负胜
8 负负负

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在卷心菜的大作中提到：

百度最佳答案

双败淘汰制规则：
从淘汰赛开始，每轮的胜者进入胜者组，负者进入败者组，败者组再败则被淘汰，胜者组的每轮负者降入败者组，如此直至胜者组和败者组的冠军进入最后的冠亚军决赛，冠亚军决赛中败者组冠军需获胜两场方为获得最后胜利，胜者组冠军获胜一场即获得胜利。

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在棋一生的大作中提到：

saw the latest rules dated 4 Jun 2009 and diagram at SIXGA .........

saw the latest rules dated 4 Jun 2009 and diagram at SIXGA on Friday night .........

amended to 淘汰赛 instead of 双败淘汰赛.

For Group B, 第8轮 is critical. 第8轮赛完：

胜方4位棋手 promoted to Grade B and moving into semi-final to fight for Top 4 in Rounds 9 and 10.

负方4位选手 moving into lower half to fight for positions 5 to 8 in Rounds 9 and 10.

------------------------------------

As for Group A, it is either 7 rounds or 9 rounds depending on the number of players.

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在碧山的大作中提到：

saw the latest rules dated 4 Jun 2009 and diagram at SIXGA ......... saw the latest rules dated 4 Jun 2009 and diagram at SIXGA on Friday night ......... amended to 淘汰赛 instead of 双败淘汰赛. For Group B, 第8轮 is critical. 第8轮赛完：胜方4位棋手 promoted to Grade B and moving into semi-final to fight for Top 4 in Rounds 9 and 10. 负方4位选手 moving into lower half to fight for positions 5 to 8 in Rounds 9 and 10. ------------------------------------ As for Group A, it is either 7 rounds or 9 rounds depending on the number of players.

Todate, more than 30 players for the 3 groups, 2 more weeks to go ....

for the registration.

Please note the closing date for registration is 21 Jun 2009 at 9 pm.

Group A -- 5 players.

Group B -- 27 players.

Ladies -- 1 player.

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在碧山的大作中提到：

Todate, more than 30 players for the 3 groups, 2 more weeks to go ....for the registration. Please note the closing date for registration is 21 Jun 2009 at 9 pm. Group A -- 5 players. Group B -- 27 players. Ladies -- 1 player.

So far 2008 Group B positions 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 ...........

So far 2008 Group B positions 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 are 5 out of the 27 Group B players this year.

Positions 1 to 4 promoted to Group A.

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在碧山的大作中提到：

So far 2008 Group B positions 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 ........... So far 2008 Group B positions 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 are 5 out of the 27 Group B players this year. Positions 1 to 4 promoted to Group A.

how many of the names below are in this year competition ?

2008

5 廖铭濠
6 庄才钧
7 李瑞光
8 王印
9 洪培荣
10 王相赋

2007

5 张友彬
6 廖铭濠
7 陈贤凯
8 赵金山
9 许永坤 (promoted in 2008)
10 洪培荣

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在碧山的大作中提到：

2008 and 2007 Group B Results ........

2008 Group B Results ........

http://v15.huasing.org/sForum/bbs.php?B=123_11041147

2007 Group B Results ........

http://v15.huasing.org/sForum/bbs.php?B=123_10907562

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在碧山的大作中提到：

todate close to 50 players with 7 in Group A .......

朱永吉洪天瑞刘剑慧曹子航许永坤刘再成黄俊阳 ......

Please note the closing date for registration is 21 Jun 2009 at 9 pm.

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在碧山的大作中提到：

todate close to 50 players with 7 in Group A ....... 朱永吉洪天瑞刘剑慧曹子航许永坤刘再成黄俊阳 ...... Please note the closing date for registration is 21 Jun 2009 at 9 pm.

七年来参加全国赛人数 .........

七年来参加全国赛人数：

2003 年A组22人, B组84人；

2004 年A组24人, B组67人；

2005 年不分组45人[包括有级棋手14人]；(无级棋手31人)

2006 年不分组56人[包括有级棋手22人]；(无级棋手34人)

2007 年A组28人, B组40人；

2008 年A组22人, B组58人；

2009 年A组?人, B组?人；

(todate 2009 B组 at least more than 40 players, better than years 2005 to 2007[无级棋手31, 34 and 40]； regarding A组, the average figures per year for 有级棋手 was 22人 during years 2003 to 2008.)

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在碧山的大作中提到：

七年来参加全国赛人数 ......... 七年来参加全国赛人数： 2003 年A组22人, B组84人； 2004 年A组24人, B组67人； 2005 年不分组45人[包括有级棋手14人]；(无级棋手31人) 2006 年不分组56人[包括有级棋手22人]；(无级棋手34人) 2007 年A组28人, B组40人； 2008 年A组22人, B组58人； 2009 年A组?人, B组?人； (todate 2009 B组 at least more than 40 players, better than years 2005 to 2007[无级棋手31, 34 and 40]； regarding A组, the average figures per year for 有级棋手 was 22人 during years 2003 to 2008.)

公开A组 ........... some suggestions for future years ....

When can we have at least 30 players and Top 12 to be promoted again ?

There were 22 graded players average per year during 2003 to 2008 with the maximum of 28 graded players in 2007 Group A.

there are 9 players (4 Grade As and 5 Grade Bs) registered for 2009 Group A so far ......(21 Jun 2009 is the closing date.)

what is the minimum number of players for Group A to proceed (10 or more ?) ?

what is the maximum number of players for Group A to have 7 rounds (less than 20 ?) ?

what is the minimum number of players for Group A to have 9 rounds (20 or more ?) ?

Since when Top 8 instead of Top 12 will be promoted ?

Next year, could we have somethings like below :

-------------------------------------------------------------------

If there are at least 15 players, 6 will be promoted if there are 6 or more Grade A players. 7 rounds (swiss pairing) will be used.

some other sets of figures could be :

10, 4, 4, 9 (round robin)

20, 8, 8, 9 (swiss pairing), less number of prizes and amounts too if number of players less than 20.

25, 10, 10, 9 (swiss pairing)

30, 12, 12, 11 (swiss pairing)

-------------------------------------------------------

One possible set of figures in future could be 30 players including 10 Grade A players, in 11 rounds (swiss pairing) will have Top 10 promoted, prizes could still be 8 only.

--------------------------------------------------------

大师 and 甲级 promoted during 2002 to 2008 listed below :

http://v15.huasing.org/sForum/bbs.php?B=123_11067445

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在碧山的大作中提到：

公开A组 ........... some suggestions for future years .... When can we have at least 30 players and Top 12 to be promoted again ? There were 22 graded players average per year during 2003 to 2008 with the maximum of 28 graded players in 2007 Group A. there are 9 players (4 Grade As and 5 Grade Bs) registered for 2009 Group A so far ......(21 Jun 2009 is the closing date.) what is the minimum number of players for Group A to proceed (10 or more ?) ? what is the maximum number of players for Group A to have 7 rounds (less than 20 ?) ? what is the minimum number of players for Group A to have 9 rounds (20 or more ?) ? Since when Top 8 instead of Top 12 will be promoted ? Next year, could we have somethings like below : ------------------------------------------------------------------- If there are at least 15 players, 6 will be promoted if there are 6 or more Grade A players. 7 rounds (swiss pairing) will be used. some other sets of figures could be : 10, 4, 4, 9 (round robin) 20, 8, 8, 9 (s (more...)

If Top 12 to be promoted ........ we could have 6 more Grade A .......

If Top 12 to be promoted ........ we could have 6 more Grade As below in the last 4 years .......

李国华许重荣洪安豪梁文杰郑木兴姚威和

In actual fact, we had only total of FIVE Master/Grade A promoted in the last 4 years.

2005 黄俊铭 -- Master
邱冠杰 -- Grade A

2006 杨高正 -- Grade A

2007 吴宗翰 -- Master

2008 黄荣岳 -- Grade A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grade Bs in the Top 12 during 2005 to 2008 .....

2005

9 李国华
10 许重荣
11 洪安豪

2006

9 梁文杰

11 郑木兴

2007

None

2008

9 梁文杰

11 姚威和

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